Question regarding Dumbledore

[wook77]

Ok, question for the flist and any who can answer it.

Long rambling intro: I was re-reading Chapter 26 of HBP last night to do research on the cave and Inferi.

When I was reading... the below caught my eye. (directly quoted from page 572 of the American Version)

And obediently, Dumbledore drank, as though it was an antidote Harry offered him, but upon draining the goblet, he sank to his knees, shaking uncontrollably.

"It's all my fault, all my fault," he sobbed. "Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..."

What do you think Dumbledore did? Is this about Harry's parents? Is this about Snape? Is this about Malfoy? Is this about Aberforth's goat?



I honestly don't know what i think. I really dislike evil!Dumbledore so I don't think that it's all about how he did something extremely awful and evil.

Instead, I think it's something that he honestly regrets. Either his inability to act quickly enough to save Harry's parents. That seems a reasonable explanation but my curiosity is saying that I'm wrong on that one.

Is this about Snape somehow? Is it Dumbledore's "fault" that Snape is forced to go back to the DE's and he's regretting that now?


What are your thoughts and feelings on this?

Comments

[incapricious.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'd always thought that maybe whatever that potion was, it made the drinker see the worst thing they could ever see, not necessarily see something that had really happened. Sort of like the reverse of the Mirror of Erised. It's some sort of torture that makes Dumbledore think something is happening, like students being tortured or Voldmort taking over the world or ... I don't know.

*ponders more*

But the way he is talking in a lot of that scene always reminded me of a child, so perhaps the potion makes one relive a traumatic childhood experience, or relive one of Tom Riddle's childhood experiences as if it were one's own.

[yaycoffee.livejournal.com]

Yeah... that's kind of what I thought about it, too. I don't think what Dumbledore was reacting to was a real thing. I think it was some sort of VERY BAD hallucination.

I also noticed the childlike-ness of his dialogue there...

... I guess I never could really figure it out beyond WHOA... CREEEEEEEEEEEPY. That scene REALLY makes my skin crawl.

[incapricious.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me too. I re-read it after reading this post and got all creeped out again. *shivers*

Although... thinking about it is making me want to write a fic from Dumbledore's POV of that scene. See if I can make his reactions make sense, given the context of whatever effects the stuff has on him.

Gah. Maybe I should just look for fics about that, as I'm sure there are many. There can't not be.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Ohhh, I hadn't thought of that. So it could've been that Dumbledore was seeing all his failures or something?

The traumatic childhood thing as well. I shall ponder this some more because they're really good thoughts.

[lurkitty.livejournal.com]

I'm slightly in the Harry's parent's crowd, but everything said above makes sense, too.

I think Dumbledore holds himself responsible for James' and Lily's deaths, and for Harry's predicament, and thus the current cascade of events we see now. Perhaps he believes he could have stopped Tom Riddle from the beginning had he acted more quickly. Or perhaps ther is one more secret from his own past yet to be revealed.

Perhaps he saw his own death as an atonement for the above...
It's Easter...just thinking about death and resurrection/Phoenix themes... multicolored Easter plot bunnies hopping all over the place, aren't they?

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I think that as well, but I'm never too sure. On my other read-throughs, I'd really just glanced over that part and it just really caught my eye for some reason this time.

Oh my, no more plot bunnies! *fights them back*

[wearethestars.livejournal.com]

I always thought it had something to do with Tom Riddle. Why he went evil, the fact that he was an orphan. Perhaps he feels like if Tom had had a better childhood then none of this non-sense would have happened.

Or perhaps it's because he's the one who went to collect Tom from the orphanage. Perhaps he thinks if he would have never brought Tom to Hogwarts, he wouldn't have been able to meet the people who helped him catapult into darkness...

I'm excited to see what JKR writes in the seventh book, to be honest. And, to see how many things she just leaves unanswered.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Ooohhh, good thinking. I like that the regret could be the "rescuing" of Riddle from the orphanage. What would have happened to him had he NOT been taken from the orphanage?

Oh no, not more plot bunnies.

Moi aussi. I don't mind some things being left unanswered but this one is going to haunt me.

[wearethestars.livejournal.com]

MORE BUNNIES!!! I agree... leaving things left open leaves us fanfic writers open for answering them!!!

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

i'd like to think it was dumbledore accepting some responsibility for what happened with tom riddle but she's set dumbledore up to be this infallible person through harry's eyes that i would be very surprised if that were the case.

maybe it's some guilt induced by what lies in store for harry as he tries to kill voldemort?

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Perhaps the message of Dumbledore being falliable is part of Harry's growing up and becoming an adult? Or at least the acceptance of that? Realizing that your "mentors" are not infalliable is a fairly tramuatic experience, or at least I think so.

[wendy.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I never look that deep.

I just thought he was talking about putting Harry in danger by both bringing him to the cave in the first place and because he knows he's setting up his own death and will be leaving Harry all alone again...

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I hadn't looked that deep before. I'd glossed over that bit every time I've read through but it really just hit me the other night and I just had to know what everyone else thought.

Do you think so? (about the death)... Because if Snape HAD gotten Dumbledore the antidote, then perhaps Dumbledore wouldn't have died or something. It's all conjecture of course, and not well thought out conjecture.

[wendy.livejournal.com]

No, I think DD knew he was going to die on the astronomy tower, I think that was a set-up that he was in on and he's regretful that he can't tell Harry.

[kabal42.livejournal.com]

I believe that Dumbledore is a good and concientous man. But, and this is an important "but", he's a very powerful man too - the fate of a nation has balanced on his shoulders many a time. He is bound to have a lot of regrets. Harry being a good example; he's used the boy, set him up, is setting him up again, for a lot of pain and suffering in the name of the greater good. He is doing what is right and not at all easy. And yes, he talks like a child here, like a confessioner asking for foregiveness. I do believe it's brought on by a hallucination, but Dumbledore does not have to have some horrid act on him conscience - the ersponsibility he's had for years is more than enough.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

evil!dumbledore stories annoy me to no end. That being said... I really do like your "but". To paraphrase and adapt a quotation... with great power comes great regrets.

Your last line really affects me for some reason. I read it late last night when I wasn't cognizant enough to respond. I actually woke up in the middle of the night with a thought (that I, err, promptly forgot once I went back to sleep) and then, on the way in to work this morning, thought about again.

With all that responsibility, he has to have regrets. Did he make the right decision, did he do the right thing, blahblahblah...

[kabal42.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree. And I do not think that my "but" makes him evil - just human.

And oh dear, I never meant to wake you in the middle of the night! *hugs* But it's quite flattering that it could make you think that much.

You nailed it there, what I meant with this. There just have to be regrets and doubts. If there weren't, Dumbledore would not be much better than Voldemort, he'd just have a more noble goal.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I want this answered in Book 7, dammit. As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the major mysteries, along with the "brief, triumphant look" (paraphrasing) in Dumbledore's eyes at the end of GoF, when he learns that Voldemort can touch Harry now.

[annella.livejournal.com]

That little bit is something I have been wondering about for YEARS! It always worried me slightly - the idea that Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to be able to touch Harry just creeped me out. Any ideas what it's about?

[wings13.livejournal.com]

Perhaps it means that now it works both ways... Harry can 'touch' VM too, that is, to defeat him...

[dramedy.livejournal.com]

Umm, ok, yeah, I meant to read your comment, but having seen your icon before, and JUST NOW getting it...OMG LOVE. now ummm... right.

*keeps reading your icon in a spanish accent*

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Hee, thank you!

[wearethestars.livejournal.com]

Agrees! Best icon ever!

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

*grins, hugs*

[wook77.livejournal.com]

You and me both.

Both of those things are now bothering me something fierce.

[kabal42.livejournal.com]

I agree. That look has been haunting me ever since I first read GoF. It's nerve-wrecking!

[lunadeath02.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking he's reliving someone else's memory, like RAB or some kid that Tom Riddle had tortured.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, good point. No one really knows what he was forced to drink so he could be somehow forced to relive horribly painful memories of someone else.

*ponders*

[vivnow.livejournal.com]

I think that he has realized that his trust in Snape was unjustified, and that by trusting him he has put everyone else in danger.

Snape overheard the prophecy. Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy. He then went to Dumbledore and told him what Voldemort was going to do. He then switches sides to avoid Azkaban (according to what he tells Narcissa).

I think we are going to find out that Snape has been manipulating events indirectly, from behind the scenes. (He reminds me of Shakespeare's Iago.) It's not until HBP that he is forced "off the fence" and into action by Draco's mother.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I'm still on the fence about Snape's loyalties. Ask anyone on my flist and they'll tell you that I'm not a Snape-fangirl. In fact, he's one of my least favorite characters.

That being said, I like your htoughts that Snape is like Iago. I'm now super anxious for book 7.

On the other hand (and part of the reason that I'm still on the fence about Snape), Snape had an opportunity to hurt Harry horribly at the end of HBP. He didn't take that opportunity. It makes me wonder why.

[vivnow.livejournal.com]

I think the reason why Snape didn't kill Harry at the end of HBP is because it's in his own best interest to allow Harry and Voldemort to destroy each other. Besides, I have a feeling that Snape already knows about the Horcruxes. He was treating Dumbledore for an injury to his arm that occured because of Salazar's ring. (A ring that was sitting in his office in plain view.)

I think that Snape figured out that Dumbledore was out to destroy the horcruxes, and that now Harry will. If Snape wants to be the "big bad" I would let Harry continue this hunt. It's less work for him. (Lucius may not have known exactly what Tom Riddle's diary was but perhaps Snape did. We also know that Sirius Black's brother knew about the horcruxes--maybe Snape told him about them.)

Of course, I may be wrong.

I wrote about Snape in August after HBP came out:
http://vivnow.livejournal.com/25567.html#cutid1

Oh cool *drops everything*

[mordyn4]

Great question. My take on it is this: Dumbledore is the Harry of his time isn't he? And just like Harry has things he feels guilt over. I think that potion makes a person relive something really unpleasant. For example, I think Sirius's death is going to be the one thing that Harry's always going to feel the most guilt over, not because it's the worst thing he'll have a hand in, but because it's the first event that hit him like that - likewise, I think there's something that Dumbledore was involved in early in his life that he feels the most guilt over, has nightmares about, and was unable to process in an adult manner at the time. The way he's speaking makes me think it's something from his childhood, something he couldn't fix. I wonder if it could be connected to his brother and would explain his brother's "problems". What a plot bunny.

Again, great question! And I can't wait to see what you're writing that you needed to research this for. M.

Re: Oh cool *drops everything*

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I really really like this thinking.

There are plenty of things that Dumbledore could regret, from not being able to save a childhood friend to using Harry this way.

Honestly, I'm feeling better about the quotation but at the same time, I'm now more confused because everyone has such wonderful thoughts on what Dumbledore could be begging forgiveness for.

(the research is more for the cave and the Inferi but now that I've had this dumbledore thought... I'm having breeding plot bunnies... it's like I could start up a whole plot bunny farm at this point.)

[noxasclepia.livejournal.com]

I read a theory once that guessed it was one of the two kids Tom tortured in the cave all those years back.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Ohh, really good thought there.

Question though... where is it put down that Tom tortured two kids in the cave? I'm woefully ignorant on this entire situation and hence the need for research.

[noxasclepia.livejournal.com]

It's just speculation, but the book has some interesting comments about the kids, so I can see where the theory might come from:

01
"[On] the summer outing - we take them out, you know, once a year, to the countryside or to the seaside - well, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were never quite right afterwards, and all we ever got out of them was that they'd gone into a cave with Tom Riddle. He swore they'd just gone exploring, but something happened in there, I'm sure of it."
(HBP-UK, pg. 251)

02
"His powers, as you heard, were surprisingly well-developed for such a young wizard and - most interestingly and ominously of all - he had already discovered that he had some measure of control over them, and begun to use them consciously. And as you saw, they were not the random experiments typical of young wizards: he was already using magic against other people, to frighten, to punish, to control. The little stories of the strangled rabbit and the young boy and girl he lured into the cave were most suggestive ... I can make them hurt if I want to ..."
(HBP-UK pg.259)