On Religion and Fandom

[wook77]

A post in which I ponder religion and fanfiction and life. Before you click the link, yes, the answer is 42.



With my recent writing habits, I've started thinking about religion and fanfiction and life and all that jazz. As some who've been around my journal for a while know, I've a unique relationship with religion. At one point in my life, I walked out of my Confirmation ceremony (yes, that makes me Catholic) and then, years later, was Confirmed while at University.

The disparity between Catholicism growing up and Catholicism with an Order (in this case, the Dominicans) was huge. I fell in love with their devotion to education and the community. In point of fact, I fell so far in love with the Dominican faith that I started to study to be a nun. Once I realized that I couldn't subjugate "self" for God, I left the Convent and became a Lay Person in the church.

When I'm nervous or feeling sad or chipper or any sort of strong emotion, I've been known to burst out in liturgical songs. Christ has died, Christ has Risen, Christ will Rise again is one that I hum when I'm bored, as an example. I say the 'Hail Mary' before bed and when I'm in horrible traffic, it's easy to say the Apostle's Creed or the Our Father. I've rosaries hanging in my house though I'm not quite sure how to pray it anymore. It's been far too long since I've gone to Confession. I'm sure the conversation would go similar to - Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. It's been years since my last Confession and I write gay porn about fictional characters. Sometimes, I write incestuous gay porn about fictional characters.

Religion soothes me and I've my own unique relationship with God. I like to think that He understands why I curse and swear like a sailor and He understands why I write porn. I don't know if He approves but, as a Catholic, I've got Confession and if he doesn't approve, I feel that He'd tell me and I'd repent and that would be that.

Recently, I've started adding bibs and bobs of religion into stories that I write. I do it where it's believable, where an absence of religion would, realistically speaking, stick out. An example is whenever I write Seamus Finnigan. To me, it's virtually impossible for a character from a fairly religious country to not have some sort of connection to a religion. Because I know Catholicism best, I choose to make him Catholic.

When I read a story featuring Seamus as a main character, a lack of mention of religion sticks out like a sore thumb. It's almost like the author won't consider that religion might actually exist or, more to the point, peacefully co-exist with magic.

Using Seamus as an example, his da is a Muggle and his mam is a Witch. There had to be some sort of meeting of the minds there. One (or both) had to compromise on their belief system to blend the two together. Whether that compromise was in ignoring the other's beliefs or it was a true meshing of the realms, I've enjoyed exploring so far. Somehow, I find it harder to believe that Seamus wouldn't be using "Catholic" curse words (phrases) such as 'Jesus, Mary and Joseph' than the existence of magic itself.

When I've posted stories dealing with religion, I've received comments to the effect that I'm "brave" or "edgy" for posting something dealing with religion. Is religion that much of a hot-button-topic?

When I say about realistically bringing up religion, I don't mean every character. Mostly, I'm talking about the characters that grow up Muggle. They had to have, at the least, read about wars based on religion (anyone else remember hearing about the 100 Years War for a gadzillion years in school?) or heard about the Middle East and all the various struggles there. Some characters would have more a religious base than others, surely. Padma and Parvati, for example, would believably have more of a relationship with religion than, say, Crabbe or Goyle. Seamus would believably have more of a relationship with religion than, say, Draco Malfoy.

Even Harry would have to have some sort of relationship with religion. With Vernon and Petunia being ever so conscious of the thoughts of their neighbors and appearing like good, pious and normal people, is it so hard to believe that they'd go to church on a Sunday, if just to keep up appearances? Why, then, is it so "brave" or "edgy" to mention that Harry was locked in the cupboard while the Dursleys made their way to church?

Basically, I just don't get why people are afraid to explore, to read and write and absorb, stories that deal with religion in the Wizarding World. It's a way of melding the Muggle and the Wizarding World together, possibly showing a struggle of conscience and conscious between what they know (magic doesn't exist and witchcraft is bad) to what they realize (magic does exist and hey, you can levitate a feather with it! Cool!).

Moving beyond the realm of Harry Potter, I've recently joined the Boondock Saints fandom - where the characters are overtly religious in canon. They have a specific prayer and they believe they're on a mission from God (no, it's not the same one as the Blues Brothers). Yet, when I read stories in that fandom, the word 'Catholic' barely ever appears in any of the hundreds of stories I've read. Actually, the only religious thing the authors continuously mention are the rosaries and those are used more as jewelry for the characters than actual religious implements. Why, in the name of God (yes, bad joke here), would you ignore such overt religious symbolism and devotion? I'm not talking about PWP stories but about long plotty stories where the religious ramifications of incest and homosexuality should be dealt with. It's not like the Catholic Church is all happyhappyjoyjoy about gays, let alone gay incestuous brothers.

When the stories (and I've only found one) do attempt to deal with Catholicism, you can tell (as a Catholic) that the author isn't Catholic and barely did any research other than what's in the movie or available on the wiki. Is it that hard to do a bit of research to find out the difference between Masses or how to pray the Rosary (ok, I'll give them that one having actually done it at some time in the past and not really remembering it now)? Really, the Church's opinion on gays and sex outside of marriage and women and the laity and loads of other issues are all out there for someone to utilize.

The last rant bit has more to do with my thirst for canon compliance than religion but… it also goes to show that a reluctance to touch on religion in a story is not just a Harry Potter phenomena. It's in multiple fandoms out there. Hell, in the Andromeda fandom, it's hard to find a fic that touches on what it means to be a Nietzschean and relate to the non-Nietzscheans. In Dead Like Me, it's hard to find stories that touch on the Reapers relationship with God other than a "woe-is-me-why-me" sort of way.

Perhaps it's because I do have a fairly strong relationship with religion that I notice the lack. Then again, perhaps I just have a religion!kink to go along with my foreign language!kink or my plot!kink or bdsm!kink. I'm not sure.

The only thing I'm sure of is that I'd like to see more of it.

Comments

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

hhmm. i don't want to see more religion in hp fic unless it's appropriate for a character. for example, i've been reading a few snupin fics recently and in several of them [by the same author], remus and/or severus attend the church of england, to which my immediate gut reaction was "wtf?". to me, organized religion like the church of england is a thoroughly muggle institution that those raised in the wizarding world might not even be aware of [i mean, if wizards don't even know what electricity is...]. so the inclusion of that really threw me.

i think seamus is a good example of a character where i wouldn't be quite as suprised because ireland does strike me as a country that is still imprinted by catholicism fairly strongly, even if i also think many irish aren't religious at all. but they'd be familiar with catholicism, imo. i don't think i'd notice the absence of religion as a lack in a seamus-centric fic. i mean, what if seamus father wasn't religious at all? he might have no interest in introducing his son to religious traditions, esp. if he is fully integrated into the ww. i think for me it would be more of a question of whether or not seamus was exposed to muggle culture, not that his father is an irish muggle.

finally, i'm not sure that "proper=going to church on sunday" holds for the dursleys. that equation strikes me as rather american, but since i'm not from the uk, i shall withhold judgment. it doesn't hold in germany, though [except for small pockets of the country that are still very religious].

[jehnt.livejournal.com]

I've sort of been wondering that as well. I'm not even remotely religious, but I'm curious as to how religion fits into the HP 'verse, and since I use fanfiction to explore other things I'm curious about, it confuses me that I can't really look at this. I'm also thoroughly, thoroughly confused by the lack of religion in Boondock Saints. Crazy.

[chaeldub.livejournal.com]

I was going to start with saying "Amen." - but I thought that would be a bit much. *grin*

First up I will have to respectfully disagree with coffeejunkii in regards to the what if Seamus's father was not religious - unfortunately this is Ireland we are talking about acountry so religoius they had a referendum to add into their constitution an ammendmant on the right to life of an unborn fetus... this only comes about through their religious beliefs that are so thoroughly woven into who they are. Even if Seamus's father wasn't religious his granparents wqould be and therefore he would be too - it's almost inescapable, like not being religious in say India, the Phillipines or Italy - it just isn't going to happen.

As for being raised in the WW with no knowledge of Religion - yes that I can understand. But for muggle born and half-blood wizards I would find it hard to believe that at least one of their parents had not been exposed to religion, especailly in Seamus's case and other areas of the UK which are quite religious. The wizards that know nothing of the muggle world are moe than likely Pure-born - ie the Weasleys, Malfoy's are have it bred out of them like the Blacks.

Mud-blood families I would hazard to guess would have to integrate themselves into both worlds, as they couldn't very well leave the muggle world behind, or may not even want to leave it at all.

I had a falling out with the church after my father died. God and I parted ways, so to speak. That's not to say I don't know anything about religion, in fact I make a concerted effort to know as much as I can about as many religions as I can, because they fascinate me... that however is a topic for my own journal I suspect.

I'm like you, I find it interesting that in the world of fandom that writing a fic that contains religious tones is "edgy"or "brave" and yet writing about incest between brothers, student/teacher relationships and underage sex is par for the course.

So maybe for me Seamus and religion are the same as, like you said, the Patil's - it's a logical assumption. Why JKR chooses not to explore this in the book is probably more a decision based on the market and who she's writing for and that the story is based on HArry and not one of the other students.

As for religion in my fics - well - that's the way I see Seamus so I can't imagine writing him any other way. As for other writers - again it depends on whether they are trying to please themselves or the masses - it's a personal choice.

Thanks for the insightful and interesting thoughts on the topic by the way.

*skulks off to do his Jedi meditation* - *snirt*

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

well, just because there is a constitutional amendment against abortion doesn't mean that every person living in ireland is religious. in my experiences in ireland, religion is a presence, but not necessarily a defining presence.

i also think that there's a difference between being exposed to religion and being taught its basics and being a religious person. one doesn't necessarily entail the other.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

finally, i'm not sure that "proper=going to church on sunday" holds for the dursleys. that equation strikes me as rather american.

That was my reaction, too. If the Dursleys were American, particularly Americans living in the south or midwest, they would totally be the type to go to church just for show, because it's proper, etc. But I really don't think that same attitude holds true in English. There religion is much more a private thing, and whether you went to church or not wouldn't be considered anyone's business but your own. I'm not from the UK, either, but that has been my overwhelming impression from those who are.

[chaeldub.livejournal.com]

Ah, but we're talking Seamus canon - ergo early/mid nineties, smack bang in the middle of The Troubles. When you have a country divided by Protestants and Catholics who have been warring with each other since the sixties - war and religion are on everyones doorstep at this time.

there's a difference between being exposed to religion and being taught its basics and being a religious person. one doesn't necessarily entail the other. - I totally agree.

[chaeldub.livejournal.com]

If the answer is 42, then the question must be - How many roads must a man walk down? or is it "what do you get if you multiply six by nine?"

I'm currently listing to the Guide from the BBC Radio shows - abso-fookin-lutely brill

[oconel]

I fairly agree with you. It doesn't matter if Seamus is from Ireland or from Northern Ireland (people use to forget there are differences!), religion was probably a part of his life in some way, maybe he's not even Catholic (or protestant), but he'd know about religion and probably influence his life. Living in a Catholic country (which doesn't mean everybody is Catholic, of course), we do have a relationship with religion: festivities, cursing, sayings... all that is related, and it's a part of our tradition (even though some people is starting to deny it). It's also part of our culture: whether in paintings, Cathedrals or Castles.

I can understand Harry not being religious, since the Dursleys don't seem religious at all, and he seems to have been pretty removed from the "outside world".

I think Rowling has purposely avoided the issue of religion in her books, but what we do with fanfiction is to explore other aspects of the books, and religion is an interesting angle to look at them.

you can tell (as a Catholic) that the author isn't Catholic and barely did any research other than what's in the movie or available on the wiki.

Let's face it, authors in general don't bother to research about what they are writing. Very few of them post questions at hp_britglish (for example) and I could tell you about the inaccurate Spanish or Spain related things I've read in fics (and what's worse in published and awarded books such as "Bel Canto").

[oconel]

...smack bang in the middle of The Troubles.

He would be affected in a different way if he was from Northern Ireland than if he was from Ireland.

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

Even if Seamus's father wasn't religious his granparents wqould be and therefore he would be too - it's almost inescapable, like not being religious in say India, the Phillipines or Italy - it just isn't going to happen.

i can sorta see your point as a matter of general impression but i would have to disagree to the analogy to the patils in india. it's a secular country with a majority religion that is not monotheistic. there is certainly a strong presence of agnostics and atheists in india. for eg. some states have democratically elected governments that are parties that identify politically as atheists. just my 2 cents.

[chaeldub.livejournal.com]

True. But people in England were affected as well, but that had nothing to do with their religion. However there were bombings in the Republic of Ireland and plenty of violence too. yes about 90% of deaths occured in the North but that didn't mean that the whole country didn't feel what was going on. When you have a centuries old divide in the North based on a communal identification based on religion this bled through out the country - especially as the south was about 75% Catholic.

This is all beside the point. The UK is steeped in religion, it may not come across like some other countries but it's there. I think what i'm saying, is it too much of a Leap of Faith to believe that some one like Seamus, who comes from either the North or the South, would not have come in contact with religion through his father, grandparents etc. I don't think it is. I'm not saying that every person is deeply religious or wears their beliefs on their sleeve. I, like Wook, am just saying that it's not only believable but highly pluasible.

[chaeldub.livejournal.com]

True - but who said the Patils were not born in India?

I may be wrong here, but I thought that about 70% of India was Hindu with some islam, christian's and the rest following up behind. I would have though a country that identifies as being 70% anything would be classed as being, at least form an outside view, as quite religious.

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

hmm..maybe it is semantics but i tend to agree more with coffeejunkii; esp. for hinduism. it's not really, imo, a "by the book" religion. there are no specific practices you should follow that classify you as religious or not (atleast that's how i was raised and it's certainly true for many folks from a similar socio-economic background as mine) so i can definitely see someone such as the patils, even if they classified as hindus, not being religious or having religion play an important role in their lives.

i guess i would say that it doesn't ring true to me that someone who was born and raised in india, is most likely religious. especially not in the same vein as wook is suggesting is true for catholicism and ireland. there is quite a strong anti-religious political movement in india. given how vastly different individual states within the country are, that makes that correlation appear very weak to me.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

I'm half and half on this subject, mostly because I have a bit of a tiff with religion and the churches.

I can trace my mom's side of the family to both sides of Ireland (North and South), so my family has had a really big influence in religion. That is, until my mom was born. She grew up religious and once she married, she just stopped doing religious things. She hates Ireland, won't tell me anything about my family (same with my grandma on her side) and thus I honestly can't tell you anything but I know I'm from both sides.

My Fiction professor Monday told us, "If you don't know it, avoid it." Which I think is actually good advice. Just because religion isn't IN a fic doesn't mean that it isn't in the background. Just because it isn't mentioned that a character goes to church or prays doesn't mean that he doesn't do it.

With Seamus, it is assumed that the Good Irish Boy has religion in him, people assume that of all Irish, but what if he doesn't? What if his father wasn't religious and therefore his mother wasn't? It can happen. My grandma let it slip one day that her grandparents weren't religious and they were 100% Irish blood. Her mom was only religious after she married her father, who was religious (and they were the ones that came from the North and South). So while it's assumed he's religious, he could be one of the rare ones that isn't religious.

What it all comes down to is the author's preferences. I personally don't write religion (I hate it, to be honest, and there's nothing that I've seen that could change my mind) unless I absolutely have to. Like if I would write Seamus now, he wouldn't be religious. BUT, if it were canon in the books and Rowling explored that instead of focusing on how much Harry wants Malfoy, then I would write it in, I'd just ask a lot of dumb questions to see if things would be in character for the religion.

On the subject of Boondock Saints -- I love the movie WAY too much to actually get into the fandom of slashing them. I don't know why, but I just like seeing them and the relationship they have there. I think if I realy the slash fandom, it would ruin it for me. Hell, I'll slash them in my head during certain scenes (deleted scene where they're rolling around naked anyone?), but other than that I just love seeing them as the close brothers that they are.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

The bad authors don't bother to research. A serious writer would, whether it's on wiki or actually attending the church for a while to get a feel of it.

[oconel]

Even though I agree with you, there is a lot of people out there who are considered good authors, but sadly, they don't bother to research. If the readers don't know about the issue in question, they'll never know the author is really tricking them.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

True. Then again, writing is all about lying and getting those who read it to believe that lie. So if a writer doesn't research, say, the Buddist religion and 5+ million people believe what's written, than that author has done his/her work.

[oconel]

Are you saying then that s/he's a good a author? ;)

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying that the person is a good author, just that they did their job. "Good author" is entirely opinion-based, thus a "good author" in my mind may be a "bad author" is someone else's. Example? I don't think Tolkein is a good author. In fact, I don't see how he got published in the first place. But, there are more than enough people out there that disagree and say that he is. In a way you could say that Tolkein didn't lie enough for me, but that's not it. I believe the world he's written, but I just don't believe he's that good.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

That's basically my point... that where appropriate, I don't think that it's 'edgy' or 'brave' to bring up religion. I can actually see the Remus attending a church if the author believably sets him up as half-and-half or Muggleborn. (I don't think it's been confirmed that he's Pureblood, has it? *mental note to research*) I read a story where Mrs. Black was Catholic and that had me going BWA? simply because it wasn't believable in the set-up the author used. (add to it that said author had no clue about the Catholic faith and, well, it was painful)

It's more that there's a lack of the subtle religious identifiers as well, like the cursing. I've found that the "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" thing, for example, is said by practicing and non-practicing Catholics. They say it by routine not religion (if that makes sense).

For Seamus and the exposed to the Muggle world - his da's Muggle... he'd have to be at least partially exposed to the Muggle world if just to visit his da's family, yeah?

I'm very embarrassed that my American is showing *blushes*. Thanks for pointing that out with the church on Sundays thing... *blushes again*

[wook77.livejournal.com]

The Boondock Saints one is what really inspired this because HELLO!They're the Hammers of God... you'd think someone would bring that up and would sound like they know what they're discussing. /ranty tone

I'd just like to see more people being willing to say "God" or "Christ" instead of "Merlin" or "Circe". GOOOOOOODDDDD GOD those last two really annoy the piss out of me.

But, getting away from the rants... things like saying "God" when you really mean "bloody buggering fuck" is more of a routine thing than a religion thing. That's where I boggle, why people actually go out of their way to remove the religion. Is it that unbelievable that a Muggleborn would use a phrase such as "goddammit" instead of "Merlin's balls"?

[oconel]

But shouldn't the job of an author be to write "good books"? (even though that is terribly subjective). Put like that, the job of an author is just to sell books, and I don't quite agree with that.

I think the book should have some quality (whether in the writing or in the story) to really think that the author did their job.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I'm like you, I find it interesting that in the world of fandom that writing a fic that contains religious tones is "edgy"or "brave" and yet writing about incest between brothers, student/teacher relationships and underage sex is par for the course.

That really sums up why and where my mind boggles.

As far as the Purebloods, I can see that they wouldn't have a relationship with Muggle religions. But those that are living in two worlds, there has to be some sort of relationship with it because they would, just by watching the telly, be exposed to religion.

I'm with you on the Seamus - I simply can't see him any other way and that might have more to do with the romantic version of Ireland and religion that I was fed as an Irish American.

I wasn't expecting nearly this response, quite honestly. I'm very glad that there's so much discussion in here. It's really very very cool :).

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

Quality, yes, but everything in the creative writing world is opinionated when it comes to "good" and "bad."

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I've had a bit more of a mixed bag when it comes to knowing people but I'm sure that's human nature at work right there. I've friends that don't go to church and their family or their neighbors are harping on them to go. I've other friends that don't give a crap one way or the other if people go or not.