On Foglines, LJ and TOS

[wook77]

I don't normally do meta. In fact, I normally label it psuedo-meta. This might just be psuedo and it might just be meta but I'm going to leave the label up to you.


Holidays were and still are a fairly big deal in my family. We get together for either Thanksgiving or Christmas. Doesn't matter that we're scattered throughout the country, that's the way it is. You're there for one of the two or mum gets pissed.

My sister, when she was stationed at Camp Pendleton, found it almost impossible to get home for Christmas so Thanksgiving it was. She'd fly into Baltimore-Washington International and we'd do the hour and a half (one way) drive to get her. Coming back up, it was always fairly fun, filled with loads of stories and catching up.

One Thanksgiving, her plane was delayed. Not a shock, right? It just happened to be delayed until 2 am. On the way back up, we were tired, dog-stinking-tired, but chattering away. Obviously, I had multiple distractions while driving. On a turn, I went over the fogline. A mile and a half later, I was on the side of the road with a cop car flashing its lights at me.

At this point in the story, I normally find people going, "but what's a fogline?". It's that handydandy little white line on the side of the road before you go off into a ditch. I didn't know what it was called either until I was doing a sobriety check by walking on it, balancing on one foot (in high heels) and then standing there following a little flash light as it swept back and forth in front of my eyes.

I was upset at the bullshit reason for getting pulled over until the officer explained just what it was I'd done. I could have been drunk. It was a possibility. The cop didn't know that my parents were in the backseat and we were all on our way back from the airport, after all. He couldn't have seen anything besides a young person behind the wheel of a sports car at 2am "weaving" in and out of a lane. After the explanation, I wasn't argumentative and I went along with it. He had the right of it. I could've been drunk and I appreciate him doing his job and acting on his suspicions of drunk driving. I've lost friends to drunk driving and it's a touchy subject with me, just like child abuse.

The entire time, the cop was respectful and polite. He kept me updated with what he was doing and why. He explained what it was he wanted me to do in clear and concise terms. Heck, at the end, he waved us off with a "next time, don't murder that fogline, ladies!" I got a chuckle, we got home only 45 minutes later than we'd thought. I now have an interesting story to tell and he got the satisfaction of knowing that people appreciate being pulled over every once in awhile.

So what does this have to do with LJ and TOSsing people?

There is no fogline so we don't know when we're crossing it.

We have this nebulous dotted line that sometimes means you can pass, sometimes you can cross it, sometimes you can turn, sometimes you can't. It's there and then it isn't. Sometimes, it's on the left, sometimes, it's on the right. We have to guess what it means and where it is.

Let's look at the two artists that were TOSsed. I read their accounts of the contact they had and I looked at the art available. Now, I could get pissed that I was viewing Snarry but I was well-informed before I clicked the link. What I saw was an adult looking Harry Potter getting sucked off by an adult Snape. What I saw was, actually, one of the first pieces of Snarry that actually intrigued me as to the dynamics of how they arrived there. My personal enjoyment aside as it doesn't influence whether or not this is a TOSsable offense, both characters are adults in the artwork. All in all, I saw mutual consent between fictional adult characters.

Yet the email from 6A states that the artist was TOSsed permanently and from all accounts because of "minors engaging in sexual activity". So, um, where're the minors?

The other artwork is no longer on the internet as the only copy was on the LJ file hosting. It's been described as Twincest between George and Fred Weasley during DH. According to canon – that would put them at least 19. Again I ask, where're the minors? Isn't that the reason they were TOSsed?

To put this in the context of the above personal story – how did these two artists not only get pulled over for "crossing the fogline" but they were put in prison for the rest of their lives when they didn't cross the fogline at all? How did this happen when the "law" (TOS) states that they will be contacted to remove the artwork before permanent suspension?

The standard that was clarified and then clarified again states that "they'd know it when they see it". I looked. I don't see it.

What I do see, however, is two cases of adult males engaging in sexual acts with adult males. To me, the artists getting TOSsed isn't just censorship, it's homophobia. This is homophobia couched in terms of "protecting the chilluns" and saving the world. This is also random enforcement of rules that one party isn't given.

Look, I get that this is 6A's sandbox. I get it. They don't want "it" (whatever it might be), that's their call. What I'm asking for is that they come out with a clear-cut set of rules and regulations. Pull me over for crossing that fogline. I did it knowingly, I deserve the punishment. I'll take my lumps and go somewhere else.

Don't just break your rules and then clam up. Again. And Again. Third time's the charm, 6A. Let's get those guidelines you've been promising out there, yeah?


ETA:As suggested in between the annoying macros, the 99 Bottles of Beer postings and various other completely unhelpful commentary - you might want to send a letter of complaint to 6A

ETA2: According to THIS, both artists were TOSsed because they had no artistic merit, not for child pornography.

ETA3: It seems that LJ staffers are checking the news post - See? - They're just doing it to ban people from commenting. Huh.

There are a few comms to check out. A good one is fandom_flies that has some interesting discussions going on for a fandom journaling system.

Comments

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

will have to come back to this when i am not rushing out the door, but there's been talk her at prophecy about this whole issue and i assume there will be more...

[elfflame]

The standard that was clarified and then clarified again states that "they'd know it when they see it". I looked. I don't see it.

I don't see it, either. And this is my problem. They say that it's up to the individual Abuse member to decide if it crosses the line. And allow them to decide where that line is. NOT a good policy. As Walmart has shown us. I do love your fogline analogy (I'd never heard of the term, either.) because it rather defines the problem, doesn't it? :D

[ex-crystalle432.livejournal.com]

What I'm asking for is that they come out with a clear-cut set of rules and regulations.

EXACTLY. i for one have no problem with the rules - like you said, it's their sandbox. i will gladly lock my under-18 fic if they tell me exactly what is not allowed. are blowjobs ok? is *implied* relations okay? what about a flashback scene that is not graphic but specifies that the characters did in fact have sex? give us some goddamn lines so we can flock the fic/art that is *inappropriate*.

i don't want to automatically jump on the bandwagon of "lj/6a are a bunch of homophobic fucktards" but the more i see, the more i believe it. has any art been banned where underage Hermione is banging the Weasley twins? how about in other fandoms where het ships are prominent? i don't know anything about that so i can't say for sure, but it seems that it's hp that's being hit hard and the slash ships at that.

i mean, come on. johnny's entertainment is a company that promotes boys from the ages of 11 up to dance around provocatively and fanservice each other on stage. if lj is going to get on anyone's asses about minors engaging in elicit activities, the je fandom would be exonerated (sp?).

and like i said in my journal, everyone in anime looks twelve. are they banning the hentai comms? CONSISTENCY, ASSHOLES.

my apologies for the mini-rant. it's just that i agree with you. ♥

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Oh awesome! I cannot wait to hear what all you guys are talking about!


and see photos and live vicariously through you guys and yadda...

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Thanks! The fogline thing is EXACTLY what I thought of first. There's just no definition and it's nebulous.

I worked with the cop cause he explained just what he wanted. I'm willing to do that here, too. Give me the rules, I'll go along with them or I'll pack up and move.

And for the "individual abuse member" - did you see stewardess's post? The same person that banned ponderosa is the same person that told stewardess that her 14 yr old Sam/Dean story was a-ok-fantabulous under the TOS.

[oconel]

"save the chilluns, save the world"

Errr... sorry, I couldn't help it.

That's exactly what I was saying to my husband some minutes ago. There are no rules and people are being banned without a proper explanation (or the chance to explain themselves/delete the post). If they don't want anything that can be considered pr0n, that's fine; but they should come out and say it.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Heee, mini-rant is all good ♥ back atcha.

Exactly!!! on your examples. If Seamus dreams about having sex with Dean when he's 15, is that allowed? It's a normal function (or at least I sure as shit dreamt about sex at 15), is that ok? Or is that sort of thing not allowed anymore? Just draw that line, tell me where it is and I'll abide by it.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHAHA!

Exactly! If there's a line that you've published and I've crossed it, that's on me. I know it's there. I crossed it. I deserve the punishment.

This random deletion of members, especially members that pay for their services and a specific TOS, that's gotta stop.

Though, I guess I kindasorta DO appreciate their continued ironic timing. As coffeejunkii said above and another friend posted earlier today, this suspension thing is what EVERYONE is talking about at Prophecy so we have so many people in one area having these huge real-time conversations and getting things together.

I like the idea of a new journal system by fans and for fans. The only concern I have is that people under 18 can't join. I have people on my flist that are under 18 and they're responsible about they do and don't read. Why should they be excluded?

[oconel]

Yes, maybe it's not that bad that people are at Prophecy because they do have Internet and it's different from the last time, when people were away from LJ because they were reading the book.

I agree. One person on my f-list was below 18 when she started writing fic (very good, btw) and she was mature enough to know what she was writing/reading. Maybe 16 would be more appropriate.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

re: eta2

Trust le Storm to actually ask LJ lmao. I <3ed her when she was on my friendslist.

But that's ... bullshit. *sigh*

[elfflame]

Exactly! We're not asking them to close their eyes and pretend we don't exist! We just want rules so we can follow.

Really? *headdesk*

Then there's got to be pressure from elsewhere. It's the only thing that makes sense. And we all know how 6A responds to pressure... *sighs*

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I appreciate her asking. I sent in a letter so we'll see how soon I get a response. You think I should start holding my breath? I'm good at it, really! Ok, no one's that good.

Yeah, so gay sex has no literary merit at all. Huh. Glad to know.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

Oooh, you might have to? I moved on over to IJ (GJ just... doesn't sit right with me?) just as a "just in case thing" and was estatic to find that their perm. accounts are only $30. If I ever latch onto there lmao.

You know... I bet if Ponderosa drew Snape/Hermione, nothing would have happened.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm hoping loads of good things happen with the Prophecy thing. I hate that it's "harshing the squee" though.

I saw that they've ETA'd the plans now to possibly have filters for "adult" vs "public" so maybe that'll take care of the 18+ concern. I mean, do you really have to be 18+ to read/write gen? I don't think so. I don't think you have to be 18+ to read/write anything really other than the stuff clearly marked as above "your" allowed rating.

In that way, I think fandom's more responsible than most published authors. We warn for everything under the sun, we have more genres, more labels and more explanations to our stories. I think that's part of why I like reading FF so much. I love that I can sort by characters or type or kink, when I'm feeling naughty ;). I can't really do that for a book. /ramble that means nothing to the current discussion.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I have GJ, IJ and JF now, all under the same username. I do like the thinking of by fen for fen, though. I'm going to wait and see right now but when the fen system happens, I'll probably migrate. I say probably because I want to see how much of my flist will migrate as well. xylodemon had a brilliant post about how this place is more than just blogging and sharing stories, it's about the community. It's about your school and irrevokable's life and ficlette's squee and everything. It's about knowing the people on my flist, not just using it as a reading list.

And you have to wonder, don't you? Why two from pornish_pixies and not from erotic_elves? I'm just waiting for the next comm to be any of the other large ones. I've backed up here just in case because I would hate to lose the conversations in the comments. I can repost the stories. I can't regain the connections.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

I've got a GJ and an IJ (same name), but not a JF. The JF system bothers me for some reason and GJ is just kinda ... there? But yeah, LJ is more and more just about blogging... but I wonder if LJ realizes just how much business they'll lose because of this. I like it as a knowing list... but I like the reading part of it too.

And I kind of do... because so far, most of what I've seen TOSed is slash, not het. Which irks me in a whole new way.

[jehnt.livejournal.com]

Now, I could get pissed that I was viewing Snarry but I was well-informed before I clicked the link.

*snerk*

[archon-mentha.livejournal.com]

Now, I could get pissed that I was viewing Snarry but I was well-informed before I clicked the link.

I LOL'd. :) Seriously though, this is ridiculous.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

*halo*

But seriously - I could see this if it was a piece of my artwork case hello, there's a reason I'm an author not an artist.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

heee! *halo*

but seriously, yes, completely ridiculous, totally and amazingly without. I eta'd one more time. Now they're banning people from commenting in communities when they repost the artwork.

[irrevokable.livejournal.com]

I'll definitely be coming back and reading this when we get back in a few hours but yeah, like CJ said, there's been loads of talk about this here at Prophecy and from the looks of it people are ready to take action the moment fandom collectively decides to move. titti even told us during a panel this afternoon that we have to get all pictures of chan and incest and all that shit off our hardrives on our computers because there was a case last month of some dude being given jail time for having graphic art on his computer when he was trying to get back into America. Scary times :\

[mayflo.livejournal.com]

I totally agree because how can an artist know if their work has artistic merit on LJ's point of view. To me, say, stick p0rn art with angry lines drawn in a corner of a notebook isn't artistic merit. Pond's and as far as Foo's art always had artistic merit. How can one deny it when their art "moved" a lot of people, namely, most of the PP watchers??

Ultimately, what makes it artistic is the aesthetic about it, and by aesthetic it doesn't only mean the pretty, because Munch's Scream isn't pretty, yet it draws reactions from people' heart, that's what aesthetic means, in art history. If anyone can judge and argue its artistic merits, please hire an art historian or something!!!

Or are they going to claim Greek's sexually explicit murals or paintings on ceramics that are niftily censored in modern age have no artistic merit merely because they are breaking the "current" law, too??

[sugareey.livejournal.com]

The fogline story is totally relevant to what LJ has done.

Seriously, we do what we like and how are we supposed to know what is considered a "violation" if we aren't told (though good artwork shouldn't be considered that). And just with artwork and it's merit...that is total bull. All though I haven't actually seen the said artwork of the artists, just speaking from an artist's point of view, there isn't really a right or wrong when it comes to merit. I definitely can see the suspensions as being homophobic though, rather than out of protection from people's eyes. If you don't like something, then don't click the link, and don't look. That's all I have to say.

Art is still freedom of speech you know, in visual terms. Gahhh, seriously...this is all overrated and dumb.

[kabal42.livejournal.com]

I'm not really in a headspace where I can go argue this to a load of people, so I'm proposing it to you as a sensible person who might argue the same point. If you like it ;-)

How about making sure that whatever fandom creates for itself is not hosted in the US? Other countries have more liberal laws - and more clearly defined ones as well! - where it's possible to know if you are within your rights to do something or not. Instead of all this vague nonsense and strange and obscure precedents.