Day 8: On Homosexuality and Warnings

[wook77]

Another thinkythought post that I found on my thumbdrive.

On Homosexuality and Warnings

I'm not at all certain that this is going to make much sense as it's more a ramble and thinkythoughts than anything clearly outlined and written in a logical fashion (Spock, I am not). That being said – here goes.

I'm extremely bothered by the way that Fandom (and this is Fandom as a whole whether it's Harry Potter, Star Trek, Supernatural, Four Brothers, The Departed or a thousand and one other fandoms) sometimes warns for possible homosexual content.

It really bothers me when I see a warning for pre-slash. It really, really bothers me. And the reason that it bothers me is because I never see the warning for pre-het. If Kirk and McCoy are flirting during a mission but nothing comes of it and it's just because Kirk is totes a flirting h0r, then I do not see it as pre-slash just like when a fic features Kirk flirting with Uhura, it is not pre-het. Yet the first gets a warning of "pre-slash" and the second is considered normal and a-ok.

This really gives me the squidgies, the squirmies, the what are we doing, why are we doing this, grossed-out feeling. I feel, and I'm certain you'll feel differently, that it's helping to encourage the heteronormative blinders when we, as slash fans, should not be reinforcing the heteronormative and warning for Other when we perv over that Other. We are objectifying and fetishizing other people's lives but we're not willing to work for acceptance? That's how it comes across to me – that I'm willing to read about the buttsexx0rs but I'm totally willing to make it easy for you, the heteronormative the-possibility-of-gay-people-scare-me person, to avoid the possibility that there might be teh gheys out there.

I get that we label works as pre-slash because that gets us more viewers and that's another issue entirely. I hate that gen has this reputation of "boring". It's not. It's awesome. There are some amazing buddy!fics out there that totally deserve to be read. There are some awesome buddy!art that should be recced to New Vulcan and back.

But in the end, pre-slash isn't slash just like pre-het isn't het. I don't see either as a valid warning just like I don't see "het" and "slash" as valid warnings. The fact is, when a couple are listed, that should be enough of a clue. If someone can't pick up on the fact that a fic features Kirk/Scotty when I clearly label it as such, than it's a buyer beware thing.

It's a personal decision but I refuse to read anything that warns for slash because I find it infantile if not offensive.

My position, to sum up, is: Stop warning for the sexuality of the characters in your fic, art, whatever. Just list out the pairings or the characters. I have a brain and can figure out that if you put Kirk/McCoy, you mean Kirk/McCoy even if they're not bumping uglies. I'll know that it's a homosexual relationship and can choose accordingly. And if you don't mean it as Kirk/McCoy, don't list it as such. List it as Kirk, McCoy and I'll know that it's buddy!fic. Stop with the warnings about pre-slash. If you mean it to be slash, even if it's not in-your-face buttsexx0rs, then list the pairing and move on. If you don't mean it as slash, then it's gen buddy!fic and w00t on that, too.

Comments

[blcwriter.livejournal.com]

Word. Well. Words, actually. You said 'em, and now I don't have to.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Hee! Thanks! A couple of fics posted today reminded me I had this sitting out there. :D

[fitzette.livejournal.com]

Wow. I've totally never thought of it that way. I've actually always thought of it as a warning that hey, here be boys being adorable but they're not technically doing things to each other, so don't get your hopes up. Never as a PRE-GAY BE HERE. I guess that's just naivety on my part.

But yes, here, have these WORD cookies I baked just for you. Warning for slash bothers me immensely. If I list a M/M pairing and you're too stupid to realize the story contains slash, you're too stupid for me too worry about offending you.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

That's when I would say that you would list it as Pairing: Kirk, McCoy instead of with the slash. Or, I would say list it as Kirk/McCoy with a low rating and I'll know that there's no buttsexx0rs going on.

I see the pre-slash warning a lot on the "anything goes" comms more than the slash comms. That's why it really flagged in my head. Plus, I've never seen a warning/enticement for "pre-het" out there. They could very well exist and then, lulz on me.

The warning for slash is what really fucking annoys me. I did it when I first got into fandom and I want to slap the fuck outta my n00b self.

why hello there coding!fail. so nice to see you again! D:

[kaalee.livejournal.com]

This.

[inspiredlife.livejournal.com]

I totally see the warning the same way as you, fitzette. It's like a disclaimer for me, the avid slash fan.

But, wook, you've totally hit the nail on the head. It's offensive, not to mention redundant. What do people think m/m means? in other words, props to you for saying what i'm thinking!

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

IAWTC I see it more as a warning that NO SEX0RS HERE. And depending on mood, I might pass it by, because, yeah, there's great buddy fic out there, but when I want smexing, I WANT SMEXING.

I see (and give) het as a warning, since most of my flist is into slash, I don't see it as homophobic if slash is given as a warning, if someone's flist is into het.

Technically, I suppose both should be in the summary or pairings, instead of a WARNING per se, but meh.

[red_squared]

I can't speak for anybody else, but when I often conflate 'warnings' with 'enticements'. So when I see 'preslash' as a warning, I interpret it as the author saying 'You don't get to see anything on-screen, and they're not even together as a couple yet, but this explores the chemistry between them if you're into that pairing', and so that it's not seen as false adverising if someone clicks on it looking for something more tangible.

ETA: And you said all that yourself. Reading comprehension FAIL.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

LMFAO! It's All GOOD! I totally get the whole enticement thing but it's more that the author needs to make a decision and stick with it. They know what they meant, yanno?

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

Word.

It's offensive and redundant (even more so when you're posting to a comm devoted to slash pairing anyway). And yeah, when I see it, I just scroll on by.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY! My scroll wheel gets a whole helluva lotta practice. Especially today when I saw it all over the flist.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

It's a big pet peeve of mine, too, though thankfully I don't see it as often these days as I used to. I did see one McShep Match fic with a warning for slash, which just made me headdesk because it's so STUPID. It's a fest specifically for a slash pairing! (PS The fic was also horrible. This did not surprise me at all.)

I actually see more warnings for het these days, which enrages me just as much, because it always feels very misogynistic. Watch out! There's icky girl parts!

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I'm not at all surprised either.

UGH! YES! I'm annoyed either way because I consider myself smart enough to figure out, from the pairing listed, if there are "icky girl parts" in it or not. It annoys the everlasting fuck out of me when people warn for the pairing. I can figure out what you mean.

[reddwarfer.livejournal.com]

Wordy McWord. I never read stuff that warns for m/m or whatever.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

oh god, me either. Dude, I get it. It's in the fucking pairing, you moron.

Then again, someone just posted a fic that had "bob/surprise pairing" and was all over 'but who could it be, you'll just have to find out" and then, in the tags, listed the surprise partner. Um... now I know that it's bob/george and you're a fucking idiot.

Then again, considering who it was, I wouldn't have expected more from hir.

[mercilynn]

THIS. Yes. I wish LJ had a "like" button similar to Facebook.

Your rating and your characters/pairing should be enough. Don't warn for pre-slash, unless you're putting something in the Author's Notes along the lines of "To me, this has slash overtones, but could easily be read as Gen."

(However, this brings about my anger of inappropriate headers where some people just list characters and not the pairings so when I settle down to read a nice lovely piece that I think is Gen I get surprise!Het OR surprise!slash)

hello html fail.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Hee, html fail is getting ALL of us!

IDEK if I'd say the "slash overtones" because IMHO, the author knows what she/he meant it as. If you meant it as slash overtones, then it's slash, IMHO. YMMV, of course.

I just wish people would write accurate headers, too. Well thought out headers give all this information without causing angst and horror.

[nolagal.livejournal.com]

The only time I "warn" for slash or het is when the main pairing is one and there is explicit sex in the other. So if my pairings are Harry/Ron, Ron/Hermione and there's explicit Ron/hermione, I'll mention it in the warnings since most people think additional pairings don't get sexy screen time. But I do it for both het and slash.

But yeah, I've never understood pre-slash to mean anything other than a warning that the pairings don't actually get together.

I hate the warnings for slash in general though.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I can see that completely. The rantythinkythoughts above are more for "Bob/George" and then the author goes "contains slash!", err, duh?

I just see them as either homophobic or n00bs. Or both.

[shygryf.livejournal.com]

i would warn for pre slash more for a character choice standpoint IE, kirk and jack harkness flirt with anything on two legs so no warning, but if the character isn't a manwhore i warn if its a buddy fic with mild flirting. but yeah warning for slash if the pairing is listed seems silly

[wook77.livejournal.com]

IDK, I wouldn't warn for any of it simply because there isn't a need. If you have buddy!fic in there, I'd be fine with that. A good header will tell me what i need to know in the way that it's written. You list the characters without the slash and I know that it's buddy fic. You list 'em with the slash and I expect slash overtones.

[tjs-whatnot.livejournal.com]

From what you said about doing it when you were a n00b and from my own n00bness, I see it less of a warning for slash, het or pre-slash, but as a warning for n00bness. And depending on the pairing and the rest of the heading, I will consider reading it, because hey, n00bs need love too... atleast I did. :))

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Yeah, hopefully. The only thing is, there are people that USED to be on my flist that would read and perv over slash but then vote against gay marriage and think RL gays are crazy and weird and have cooties or something. I've seen it used in homophobic mannners so IDK that i can say it's all n00bs but, yeah, a lot of n00bs.

When you read it, do you ever point out that there's no need for a warning? I wonder what the reaction would be.

[enchanted-jae.livejournal.com]

I always thought people warned for "pre-slash" as a way of saying, 'No sex in this one--sorry!' Not because they were saying, 'Look out--homoerotica is in the future!' I don't WARN for pre-slash, but I do TAG for it, and that's the reason I tag it thus, meaning 'no action yet, sorry'.

Interesting.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

IDK - I see the rating of "pg" to tell me that there's no sex in it. YMMV, of course.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I'd be more likely to warn for het than for slash. *snickers*

Seriously, I don't understand the slash warnings. People need to list the pairing if there is one, and if it's a pairing that a person doesn't like (het or slash), then they should scroll on by. People should warn for "Sexual content", not "homosexual content."

As I said in a comment above, I wish people would use the ampersand notation for friendship/buddy/non-romantic "pairings."

And dammit, YES, I wish there was more good gen fic. Let me know if you find some. I've found myself writing genfic more and more, and I'm looking for it more and more.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Lulz

IDK that people need to warn for sexual content. If I read a higher rating fic with a m/m pairing listed, I'm going to have a bit of an assumption, going in to it, that there just might be touching and sexual content.

I saw an ampersand used today, actually! I thought of you :D

[sangueuk.livejournal.com]

It's a personal decision but I refuse to read anything that warns for slash because I find it infantile if not offensive. I loved this post!

[wook77.livejournal.com]

<3

I love your icon!

[drusillas-rain.livejournal.com]

Word on the warning for slash (although, I've warned for het on fic before, but really it should be obvious from the pairings listed).

Re pre-slash - in BTVS fandom (Spike/Xander), pre-slash seems to be treated as a category rather than as a warning, where the stories fall into a gray area of not being gen-fic because there's some movement towards possibly establishing a relationship and a developing relationship fic. There's no satisfying conclusion at the end where they are now together, but they're no longer platonic friends. But, you're right, there's got to be a better way to describe that state.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

It really should be obvious from the pairing and the way that characters are listed.

I think, to describe that state, that the author should have it in the summary somehow. If I read "sometimes you can't get what you want", I'm going to know that the pairing will probably not end up together.

[ciel-vert.livejournal.com]

This exactly yes. It seems strangely homophobic to warn for homosexual content... especially when the pairing alone should denote this, as well as the fact that a lot of times these fics are posted to SLASH SPECIFIC comms. I mean, what? I feel like I see it most with the really young authors, so I don't know what that might have to do with it. But basically yeah, I get so pissed whenever I see a warning for gay sex.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

This!

I just don't get the warnings at all let alone in slash specific comms. If I see kirk/mccoy in a kirk/mccoy comm, I'm going to know that it's got some slash in it. oh noez! you're performing the comm's purpose how dare you!

A lot of it is n00bs but a lot of it is homophobic slashers. I've seen 'em, I've defriended 'em.

[maab-connor.livejournal.com]

i second this liek woah.

though i will admit to once or twice warning for het, but that's only b/c i do it so rarely i'm always rather perplexed at how it has transpired. so it's not so much "warning the reader" as it is "sharing my bafflement"

[wook77.livejournal.com]

LULZ! I share in the bafflement thingy. I'm just all o.O over a lot of the things I write. Not so much the het cause I love it but the o.O Snape/Teddy? o.O SNARRY!? I warn for Snape's cock working. I admit it.

So I completely get the bafflement thing! Our brains sometime betray us, don't they? the fuckers. ;)

[tanzanick.livejournal.com]

Yummmm...Kirk/McCoy....*drools*

I realize this wasn't the point of your post but still...yum.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

Lulz! You've a good point!

[iteari.livejournal.com]

That's a very intelligent take on those warnings. I just always assumed they were put there, and I myself put them there for that reason that, to prevent some twit reading a slash fic and going crazy because of "teh gay" and thus flame the author.

I just never took it as anything more than that, but now I'm thinking over it and yeah, it is does come off as to what you're saying. I never realized it. Thanks for opening my eyes.

P.S. You're an awesome writer.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

IDK about intelligent as it's more just a rant about my thoughts on warning for obviousness.

IMHO, if you see a pairing, the reader should be smart enough to figure out that it's slash or het or whatever. Then again, people really are sort of dumb, aren't they?

I appreciate your kind words regarding my writing!