wook77 | (no subject)

lol, icon.

:D I love that icon!!!

If he'd ended up as first officer, he'd likely have just been a commander (or possibly, though far less likely, lt. cmdr). I mean, in TNG and VOY, the first officers don't have any job OTHER than first officer. In DS9 Kira is first officer, but she's also the Bajoran liason officer to the Federation, which is a different sort of deal altogether. So first officer seems to be a somewhat more fluid role than most others.

I'm leery on basing tos stuff on later series cause command structure could change. Idk.

Maybe I'll pretend his job would be poolboy:P

T'Pol on Enterprise was before STXI, lol. She was also Vulcan and a science officer though, which I imagine is because SMRT Vulcans are being stereotyped as scientists. But she too was not actually in Starfleet, since she was an observer from the Vulcan High Command's Science Counsel. And at the time of Enterprise and XI, humans dominated Starfleet to such a degree that aliens were kind of... affirmative-action placed. Sort of thing. None of the other first officers I have seen from Enterprise served any other roles.

Number One from the original pilot was not a science officer, though idk what she was. This dude was XO and navigator. So.

Eh, I figure command structure wouldn't change that much. It's all based on naval command structure anyway, probably mostly British from the Napoleonic War even. Gene Roddenberry apparently described Star Trek as "Horatio Hornblower in space," lol. And it's been the same through Enterprise - Voyager, and is the same in ~future episodes~ so.

Poolboy sounds like a good idea... though where do they keep the pool on the spaceship?!?

And I believe you mean Winona's maiden name? Because otherwise, Kirk lol. And Memory Alpha knows nothing about it, so I would assume it hasn't been mentioned anywhere. If you want it to be remotely canon-based, in TOS Kirk had a brother named George Samuel Kirk, and given that George, James, and Tiberius are all family names, you could hazard a guess that Samuel is too, and she was perhaps Winona Samuels. BUT THIS IS ALL JUST GUESSWORK, ABSOLUTELY NO HARD FACTS WITH THIS ANSWER.

And I don't think we know whether he was pilot or navigator or took some other path to command (remember they can switch tracks!). Memory Alpha doesn't say anything, so. I'm not even sure that pilot/navigator are different tracks per se, just different assignments on that particular ship.

Edited 2009-07-07 23:16 (UTC)

Lol yeah I meant maiden name! Hee!

I keep checking memory alpha on things and coming up blank but I keep thinking maybe it's cause my googlefu fails hardcore.

I think I'm going with samuels cause you said so :P

heee!

Spock could have done both the command and science track at the same time cause he's just that smart. I also remember in TNG there was an ep where Deanna Troi started taking command courses just in case she was in charge of the bridge again. So I think first officer is a fluid post that can be given regardless of whether a person is primarily command or something else - even if they take over from the captain for a bit, they likely wouldn't captain their own starship as a permanent commission.

I also remember reading somewhere that the ST promotions are handled similarly to marines (rather than military) so that Kirk's and Uhura's field promotions can stay (in military they wouldn't). Not entirely sure how that works, but I thought it was interesting.

If you can find a way to tie it into a Spock/Uhura discussion, the

spock_uhura comm is amazing for answering such questions. Actually, I'd recommend perusing their discussions anyway (while some focus on the logistics of S/U relationship, a lot of it is focused on canon background info).

If Kirk had been 1st officer, he would have been 1st officer. Riker on TNG, Kira on DS9 and Chakotay on Voyager were all just 1st officer and nothing else.

Winona Kirk is Winona Kirk. Also, Jim's older brother George Samuel has apparently been referred to in books and canon as Sam by those closest to him, not as George.

Winona Kirk wasn't always Winona Kirk though. She had to have a maiden name.

Also I'm aware that Gaila is uhuras roommate in the third year but there's no canon info for uhuras second year which is when that part is set.

I know a lot about starfleet changes from tos to tng or ds9 or voyager so I wasn't sure if Jim had specialized or not.

heh, yeah, I figured re Winona.

(and I deleted the comment re Gaila and msg'd you separate about it) - it was one of those things that pulled me out of the fic a bit, mostly because in the s/u comm Gaila is pretty much the only roommate that ever gets mentioned. But you're right - there's no reason she would be her roommate in any year other than 3rd.

From what I've seen Jim is strictly command track.

ok, so the person who said George is Sam was I think wrong. I was curious about Winona and checked out Memory Beta (the wiki of the novels and interviews) and she's never given a last name. And George is referred to as George.

Interesting entry:
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Winona_Kirk

Thanks for doublechecking. I had looked there but didn't find the info either. Glad I'm not missing anything:D

ok, I'll stop spamming you now.

In the middle 2220s, Kirk worked as a midshipman on the working trader ship Alexandria (TOS novel: The Great Starship Race).

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/George_Samuel_Kirk_Sr.

re: the promotions, I always figured it was like in Horatio Hornblower where Horatio is promoted from midshipman to acting lieutenant, then even though he didn't pass his lieutenant's exam, he REMAINED acting lieutenant until such a time as he did. Especially since I've seen that the entire Starfleet concept was based around the British navy in the Napoleonic wars. BUT this is just sort of ramblings on my part. And I don't know all that much about British naval command structure or operations anyway, aside from Horatio Hornblower and Master & Commander.

(Also Kira wasn't SOLELY the first officer, she was also Bajor's liaison officer to the Federation, which had its own duties. /nitpicky)

Kirk says he is the only one who calls his brother "Sam" in "What Little Girls Are Made Of". In AOS, Samy got edited out--so we've no idea whether he was called Sam, or George Jr.

With regard to the command track, first of all, it's unusual for anyone to go from low rank directly to captain - that's kind of the whole point about Kirk being so SPESHUL. And in TOS canon, he served on another ship before getting command of Enterprise.

Every captain that I can think of knows how to pilot. They all pilot shuttlecrafts, and they would know how to navigate, fire weapons and whatnot. First Officers are basically captains in training - and they can do most of the "command" jobs. Riker was offered his own command and turned it down because he wanted to be on the Enterprise. Sulu later became a captain, (as did Spock of course!) and Chekov was the first Officer under Paul whatsisface (Winfield?) in Wrath of Khan. Not to mention that the captain and first officer don't spend 24 hours on the bridge, so other command officers will have command of various shifts.

But also TOS was different from TNG. In TOS it was fairly typical for the science officer to be first officer. Kind of like double duty. But that changed, too, probably as more people enlisted in StarFleet (as more races joined the Federation) and the first officer became a kind of mini-captain in charge of the crew stuff and whatnot.

Deanna Troi was ship's counselor, but she took the command exam - and eventually passed, and she was at the con when Enterprise crashed in Generations. :-P

You can't use James Kirk as an example of anything with regard to command because in reboot he went from cadet to captain which had never been done before, and even in TOS, he was the youngest captain in Starfleet. In the early seasons of TNG, Riker was apparently on the "Kirk" track and wanted to beat Kirk's record, but, yanno, if he did, he would have had to leave the show, and they couldn't have that. So he turned down command because he decided he wanted Enterprise after Picard retired/got promoted. :-P

But um, during TOS era, and reboot, the first officer would have a double duty, and the designation "first officer" pretty much meant, "If anything happens to the captain, I'm in charge." It was less a job in itself and more a status, you know?

/rambling :-P

See that's what I'm curious about... What would jims double duty be other than enterprise bicycle/poolboy?

So hmmmm then with your awesome reasoning, George prolly was the science officer. That makes sense with the action and what was going on.

Poor deanna. She was one of the few characters I like in tng.

You mean if he had been first officer? Or are you talking about when Pike promoted him in the movie?

You don't normally go from cadet to high command (first officer or captain). After graduating the academy, Kirk would have been a lieutenant. I don't think he would have been a science officer either though - it just doesn't suit him. I mean, Picard? Science officer material. Jim was brilliant, but he strikes me as someone who would have felt that analysis is boring. :-P

George could have also been a navigator or weapons officer, but he could also have been a science officer. I don't think there's any canon about that - at least at the time of Jim's birth. Hell, according to Trek doctrine, married couples (and I think siblings as well) never served on the same ships at that time, so George and Winona being on the same ship in the movie total went against Trek canon.

Helm usually doubles as tactical (firing weapons). There wasn't a seperate tactical station on the bridge until TNG era ships, I think? There's an engineering station, science station, comms station, helm, navigation, and command chair standard on Pike and Kirk's bridges, but we rarely saw otehr ships besides Enterprise, and there may well be other stations that are there, just not identified (in AOS, for example, there are a half dozen other stations manned by unnamed officers from sciences and operations along the back wall of the bridge, on either side of Science Station and Communications).

There were married coupels on the same starships in TOS. Kirk performas a wedding of two command division officers in "Balance of Terror (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Balance_of_Terror_(episode))". And in fanon, Captain Robert April served with his wife, Sarah Poole, who was CMO.

There just aren't children/families on starships in the 23rd century, or civilians unless they're being couriered to someplace or on special assignment.

Edited 2009-07-13 19:22 (UTC)

LOL i thought winona was spock's mom and this was gonna be about spock :o i can haz $ back plz? :D

w00kie, i want some spock and/or kock icons. wherefore do i go? ♥

No maiden name for Winona in canon or fanon that I know of.

As for George, based on Number One, Sulu and Chekov all being in command gold tunics and later becoming first officers and captains, it looks like helm and navigation are included in the command track. So most command school grads probably serve on the bridge as helm or navigation, as they work their way up the chain of command. So George could well have been both the XO and helm officer (like Number One). Gary Mitchell was Jim's first pick for Exec, and he was Navigation in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" I think.

It isn't until TNG that the XO even has his own chair on the bridge, because Spock and Number One sat either at the science station or helm, there was no story reason explaining what's standard operating procedure for First Officers (they didn't need to explain, since Spock was the only XO we ever saw on the bridge in TOS).