wook77 | On Religion and Fandom

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On Religion and Fandom

A post in which I ponder religion and fanfiction and life. Before you click the link, yes, the answer is 42.

With my recent writing habits, I've started thinking about religion and fanfiction and life and all that jazz. As some who've been around my journal for a while know, I've a unique relationship with religion. At one point in my life, I walked out of my Confirmation ceremony (yes, that makes me Catholic) and then, years later, was Confirmed while at University.

The disparity between Catholicism growing up and Catholicism with an Order (in this case, the Dominicans) was huge. I fell in love with their devotion to education and the community. In point of fact, I fell so far in love with the Dominican faith that I started to study to be a nun. Once I realized that I couldn't subjugate "self" for God, I left the Convent and became a Lay Person in the church.

When I'm nervous or feeling sad or chipper or any sort of strong emotion, I've been known to burst out in liturgical songs. Christ has died, Christ has Risen, Christ will Rise again is one that I hum when I'm bored, as an example. I say the 'Hail Mary' before bed and when I'm in horrible traffic, it's easy to say the Apostle's Creed or the Our Father. I've rosaries hanging in my house though I'm not quite sure how to pray it anymore. It's been far too long since I've gone to Confession. I'm sure the conversation would go similar to - Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. It's been years since my last Confession and I write gay porn about fictional characters. Sometimes, I write incestuous gay porn about fictional characters.

Religion soothes me and I've my own unique relationship with God. I like to think that He understands why I curse and swear like a sailor and He understands why I write porn. I don't know if He approves but, as a Catholic, I've got Confession and if he doesn't approve, I feel that He'd tell me and I'd repent and that would be that.

Recently, I've started adding bibs and bobs of religion into stories that I write. I do it where it's believable, where an absence of religion would, realistically speaking, stick out. An example is whenever I write Seamus Finnigan. To me, it's virtually impossible for a character from a fairly religious country to not have some sort of connection to a religion. Because I know Catholicism best, I choose to make him Catholic.

When I read a story featuring Seamus as a main character, a lack of mention of religion sticks out like a sore thumb. It's almost like the author won't consider that religion might actually exist or, more to the point, peacefully co-exist with magic.

Using Seamus as an example, his da is a Muggle and his mam is a Witch. There had to be some sort of meeting of the minds there. One (or both) had to compromise on their belief system to blend the two together. Whether that compromise was in ignoring the other's beliefs or it was a true meshing of the realms, I've enjoyed exploring so far. Somehow, I find it harder to believe that Seamus wouldn't be using "Catholic" curse words (phrases) such as 'Jesus, Mary and Joseph' than the existence of magic itself.

When I've posted stories dealing with religion, I've received comments to the effect that I'm "brave" or "edgy" for posting something dealing with religion. Is religion that much of a hot-button-topic?

When I say about realistically bringing up religion, I don't mean every character. Mostly, I'm talking about the characters that grow up Muggle. They had to have, at the least, read about wars based on religion (anyone else remember hearing about the 100 Years War for a gadzillion years in school?) or heard about the Middle East and all the various struggles there. Some characters would have more a religious base than others, surely. Padma and Parvati, for example, would believably have more of a relationship with religion than, say, Crabbe or Goyle. Seamus would believably have more of a relationship with religion than, say, Draco Malfoy.

Even Harry would have to have some sort of relationship with religion. With Vernon and Petunia being ever so conscious of the thoughts of their neighbors and appearing like good, pious and normal people, is it so hard to believe that they'd go to church on a Sunday, if just to keep up appearances? Why, then, is it so "brave" or "edgy" to mention that Harry was locked in the cupboard while the Dursleys made their way to church?

Basically, I just don't get why people are afraid to explore, to read and write and absorb, stories that deal with religion in the Wizarding World. It's a way of melding the Muggle and the Wizarding World together, possibly showing a struggle of conscience and conscious between what they know (magic doesn't exist and witchcraft is bad) to what they realize (magic does exist and hey, you can levitate a feather with it! Cool!).

Moving beyond the realm of Harry Potter, I've recently joined the Boondock Saints fandom - where the characters are overtly religious in canon. They have a specific prayer and they believe they're on a mission from God (no, it's not the same one as the Blues Brothers). Yet, when I read stories in that fandom, the word 'Catholic' barely ever appears in any of the hundreds of stories I've read. Actually, the only religious thing the authors continuously mention are the rosaries and those are used more as jewelry for the characters than actual religious implements. Why, in the name of God (yes, bad joke here), would you ignore such overt religious symbolism and devotion? I'm not talking about PWP stories but about long plotty stories where the religious ramifications of incest and homosexuality should be dealt with. It's not like the Catholic Church is all happyhappyjoyjoy about gays, let alone gay incestuous brothers.

When the stories (and I've only found one) do attempt to deal with Catholicism, you can tell (as a Catholic) that the author isn't Catholic and barely did any research other than what's in the movie or available on the wiki. Is it that hard to do a bit of research to find out the difference between Masses or how to pray the Rosary (ok, I'll give them that one having actually done it at some time in the past and not really remembering it now)? Really, the Church's opinion on gays and sex outside of marriage and women and the laity and loads of other issues are all out there for someone to utilize.

The last ~~rant~~ bit has more to do with my thirst for canon compliance than religion but… it also goes to show that a reluctance to touch on religion in a story is not just a Harry Potter phenomena. It's in multiple fandoms out there. Hell, in the Andromeda fandom, it's hard to find a fic that touches on what it means to be a Nietzschean and relate to the non-Nietzscheans. In Dead Like Me, it's hard to find stories that touch on the Reapers relationship with God other than a "woe-is-me-why-me" sort of way.

Perhaps it's because I do have a fairly strong relationship with religion that I notice the lack. Then again, perhaps I just have a religion!kink to go along with my foreign language!kink or my plot!kink or bdsm!kink. I'm not sure.

The only thing I'm sure of is that I'd like to see more of it.

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I was going to start with saying "Amen." - but I thought that would be a bit much. *grin*

First up I will have to respectfully disagree with

coffeejunkii in regards to the what if Seamus's father was not religious - unfortunately this is Ireland we are talking about acountry so religoius they had a referendum to add into their constitution an ammendmant on the right to life of an unborn fetus... this only comes about through their religious beliefs that are so thoroughly woven into who they are. Even if Seamus's father wasn't religious his granparents wqould be and therefore he would be too - it's almost inescapable, like not being religious in say India, the Phillipines or Italy - it just isn't going to happen.

As for being raised in the WW with no knowledge of Religion - yes that I can understand. But for muggle born and half-blood wizards I would find it hard to believe that at least one of their parents had not been exposed to religion, especailly in Seamus's case and other areas of the UK which are quite religious. The wizards that know nothing of the muggle world are moe than likely Pure-born - ie the Weasleys, Malfoy's are have it bred out of them like the Blacks.

Mud-blood families I would hazard to guess would have to integrate themselves into both worlds, as they couldn't very well leave the muggle world behind, or may not even want to leave it at all.

I had a falling out with the church after my father died. God and I parted ways, so to speak. That's not to say I don't know anything about religion, in fact I make a concerted effort to know as much as I can about as many religions as I can, because they fascinate me... that however is a topic for my own journal I suspect.

I'm like you, I find it interesting that in the world of fandom that writing a fic that contains religious tones is "edgy"or "brave" and yet writing about incest between brothers, student/teacher relationships and underage sex is par for the course.

So maybe for me Seamus and religion are the same as, like you said, the Patil's - it's a logical assumption. Why JKR chooses not to explore this in the book is probably more a decision based on the market and who she's writing for and that the story is based on HArry and not one of the other students.

As for religion in my fics - well - that's the way I see Seamus so I can't imagine writing him any other way. As for other writers - again it depends on whether they are trying to please themselves or the masses - it's a personal choice.

Thanks for the insightful and interesting thoughts on the topic by the way.

*skulks off to do his Jedi meditation* - *snirt*

well, just because there is a constitutional amendment against abortion doesn't mean that every person living in ireland is religious. in my experiences in ireland, religion is a presence, but not necessarily a defining presence.

i also think that there's a difference between being exposed to religion and being taught its basics and being a religious person. one doesn't necessarily entail the other.

Ah, but we're talking Seamus canon - ergo early/mid nineties, smack bang in the middle of The Troubles. When you have a country divided by Protestants and Catholics who have been warring with each other since the sixties - war and religion are on everyones doorstep at this time.

there's a difference between being exposed to religion and being taught its basics and being a religious person. one doesn't necessarily entail the other. - I totally agree.

...smack bang in the middle of The Troubles.

He would be affected in a different way if he was from Northern Ireland than if he was from Ireland.

True. But people in England were affected as well, but that had nothing to do with their religion. However there were bombings in the Republic of Ireland and plenty of violence too. yes about 90% of deaths occured in the North but that didn't mean that the whole country didn't feel what was going on. When you have a centuries old divide in the North based on a communal identification based on religion this bled through out the country - especially as the south was about 75% Catholic.

This is all beside the point. The UK is steeped in religion, it may not come across like some other countries but it's there. I think what i'm saying, is it too much of a Leap of Faith to believe that some one like Seamus, who comes from either the North or the South, would not have come in contact with religion through his father, grandparents etc. I don't think it is. I'm not saying that every person is deeply religious or wears their beliefs on their sleeve. I, like Wook, am just saying that it's not only believable but highly pluasible.

The Troubles affected people everywhere in different ways, so I agree with you.

Just to add a bit of personal here... as an American of Irish descent, I watched the bombings and the news and heard about it in my home. In my family (as, obviously, I can't speak for every Irish American family), we rehashed the stories of why our family came over here and our grandparents cursed the British, even though they themselves were born here in America.

Yes, living in a country which sadly is cursed with terrorists, too, I know it's not the same to live in the Basque country (where people are extremely careful with what they say out loud mainly if it's related to politics) or in Madrid, where, even though we suffer lots of bombings, people don't have to fear that their neighbour is going to kill them.

The Troubles are/were only in Northern Ireland, a part of the UK (whatever one thinks of that), and Seamus seems to me to be written as pretty solidly Republic of Ireland. Also, the early-mid 90s was the middle of the peace process, not the height of the Troubles.

I meant to add - afaik. I visited both Northern Ireland and the Republic in the early and mid 90s - to stay with friends and for work, not just on a holiday trip - and the 'feel' was very different in the two areas. There was a real feel of cohesive community in the areas of the Republic I visited, and no real sense of there being any violence going on anywhere, whereas in the North the tension was palpable - even in sleepy little rural villages, the kerb stones were painted in the colours of choice.

True, they are/were very different places. Having been born in Scotland and watching the news of the IRA and bombings in both the North and the South(ie: Dublin) and also England, and my mums friend was hurt in a bomb blast I think you can't just say it was just a North thing.

As I said in another post that is beside the point, what I was getting at by intimating the Troubles is that Ireland is a country that is deep rooted in its religion, alot of Great Britain is. (the 2001 census stated that 86% identified with having a religion) So it shouldn't be to much of a stretch to believe that Seamus could be Catholic.

I think what I'm saying is that it just seems like people don't want to take a leap of faith in regards to religion in fandom but incest, techer/student relationships etcetc - they seem to have no problem with.

Me = born, raised and spent most of my working life in various parts of England.

I agree that the effects of the Troubles were very widespread in both the UK and the Republic, but the effect of living in the middle of it was (and is) very different from living at a distance to it and occasionally being at risk of a bomb blast.

I would say that Ireland is deeply rooted in religion, whether Protestant or Catholic Christianity in a way that England, certainly, definitely isn't - despite the effect of the Alpha programme in the Church of England in recent years. 86% identify with a religion, but research by the Church of England and by various social scientists over many years suggests that is 'belonging without believing', as well as the large numbers who 'believe (in something) without belonging (in any one religious group)'.

I do agree though that I can't imagine that Seamus isn't a Catholic, with a name like that - at least culturally, if not in terms of deep belief or regular practice.

It may be that a lot of fans either take the view that 'it's not in canon' (but then, neither is incest and teacher/student sex!!!), or they have had bad experiences with various colours of Christianity and don't want to see their favourite characters having anything to do with it.

Even if Seamus's father wasn't religious his granparents wqould be and therefore he would be too - it's almost inescapable, like not being religious in say India, the Phillipines or Italy - it just isn't going to happen.

i can sorta see your point as a matter of general impression but i would have to disagree to the analogy to the patils in india. it's a secular country with a majority religion that is not monotheistic. there is certainly a strong presence of agnostics and atheists in india. for eg. some states have democratically elected governments that are parties that identify politically as atheists. just my 2 cents.

True - but who said the Patils were not born in India?

I may be wrong here, but I thought that about 70% of India was Hindu with some islam, christian's and the rest following up behind. I would have though a country that identifies as being 70% anything would be classed as being, at least form an outside view, as quite religious.

hmm..maybe it is semantics but i tend to agree more with

coffeejunkii; esp. for hinduism. it's not really, imo, a "by the book" religion. there are no specific practices you should follow that classify you as religious or not (atleast that's how i was raised and it's certainly true for many folks from a similar socio-economic background as mine) so i can definitely see someone such as the patils, even if they classified as hindus, not being religious or having religion play an important role in their lives.

i guess i would say that it doesn't ring true to me that someone who was born and raised in india, is most likely religious. especially not in the same vein as wook is suggesting is true for catholicism and ireland. there is quite a strong anti-religious political movement in india. given how vastly different individual states within the country are, that makes that correlation appear very weak to me.

Even atheism is a system of belief. Believing in the absence of a deity is still a relationship with a deity.

But... that being said... my point was that it would be believable to have the Patils not eating beef and having it be due to their belief system or cultural heritage. That that isn't addressed is where I boggle. I'd simply like to see more people be willing to address that.

i get where you're coming from, those things sometimes bother me but never in fanfic in the HP verse. i think i attribute that partly to the insular world that JKR has created (and how, to me atleast, is the big part of the appeal) and also my personal dislike of reading about religion under most contexts. now i can't relate to the boondocks example 'cos don't even know what it is :)

having said that, i'll still say it wouldn't cause me to raise eyebrows over patil eating beef. it's just really too vast a country. muslims in india eat beef. christians do too. so do agnostic, atheist and certain progressive minded hindus. sometimes i worry that authors simply rehash stereotypes when they attempt to do justice.

but i do see your point about wanting to see that raised. i simply fall into the category of folks who don't want always want to see it raised.

this is all related to the jackass isn't it? :D

OMG YOU MUST WATCH BOONDOCK SAINTS! I shall spam you with photos of the boys. GAH, yum. Anyway, right, we're not discussing my love for Connor and Murphy.

The complete absence of any information like that has me raising my eyebrows for some of the characters. Using the Patils as an example... remember the bikini incident at vu? That was a cultural thing that, had I not bothered to do the research, would've been ill-played and would've jarred you (as the resident expert *grins*) out of the storyline/flow if I had just ignored it.

There is a fine line between doing the culture justice and rehasing stereotypes. I've a major problem with Seamus getting drunk all the time because of the whole stereotype of Irish people being drunkards. I'm sure I've ranted to you about it.

I'm not saying all the time but how is it "edgy" or "brave" to actually address religion?

And, err, no, not really related to the jackass directly. It's more of a roundabout thing that's been brewing in my head for quite awhile. I thought, at first, that this might just be a HP thing but then, once I read loads and loads of BDS fic, well, that's when it finally bubbled over. Canon says those boys are HUGELY religious (I mean, they think of themselves as the Hammers of the Lord for Christ's sake!) and there's this complete void of religion in fic.

Even atheism is a system of belief. Believing in the absence of a deity is still a relationship with a deity.

Not necessarily. Do you consider yourself to have a relationship with every god you don't believe in? Atheism does not have to mean believing in the absence of a deity--that's only hard atheism. Soft atheism is the lack of belief in any deities.

I'm pretty open about people putting religion in their fics if they're doing it in a way that I buy within the fic and if it doesn't seem to contradict canon. I think if I heard about the Dursleys locking Harry in a cupboard while they went to church my first thought would be that it was an Americanism, simply because I'd assume the author pictured the Dursleys as the kind of people you've described, who lived in a place where church was expected. Where as in canon church is never mentioned, and I think it would have been there along with the garden club if it were that kind of a factor. (Particularly if Petunia was locking Harry up before going, or forcing him to be polite and seemingly grateful at the service--I can't imagine JKR missing the chance to point out the hypocrisy of their religious belief.)

For Wizards I often don't make much of a distinction. The books include a Fat Friar, and they celebrate Easter and Christmas. You'd have to convince me of a character having a specific history or belief system, but I wouldn't automatically not believe it just because the character was Pure-blood. (Remus is a Half-blood, btw, I think JKR has said, but I don't know exactly what his background is.)

Hogwarts doesn't have as much religious history as it might--a lot of old boarding schools one would expect to have a chapel, for instance, even if the kids weren't required to attend it once a week. But I wouldn't be thrown out if someone painted a convincing religious history for a Pure-blood family. I've always assumed Parvati had two Wizard parents since Pansy seemed to know her. I wouldn't have trouble with her being both Pure-blood and Hindu if it was convincing in the story.

Not necessarily. Do you consider yourself to have a relationship with every god you don't believe in? Atheism does not have to mean believing in the absence of a deity--that's only hard atheism. Soft atheism is the lack of belief in any deities.

Actually, I do feel that I have a relationship with every god in that I either believe or not believe. That lack of belief, even when I'm aware, is a relationship, to me.

Oh SCORE on the Remus information! Thanks!!!!!

Re: the school chapel, I read an interesting story about a year and a half ago that had Harry stumbling over the old remains of a chapel in the Forbidden Forest but the centaurs had torn it down once it stopped being used (at least, I think it was the centaurs). I wish I could remember what one it was.

I have the same assuption about Parvati simply because I don't see Pansy as the type to be familiar with a half-blood or muggleborn. The melding of beliefs would be very interesting to see written.

I'm like you, I find it interesting that in the world of fandom that writing a fic that contains religious tones is "edgy"or "brave" and yet writing about incest between brothers, student/teacher relationships and underage sex is par for the course.

That really sums up why and where my mind boggles.

As far as the Purebloods, I can see that they wouldn't have a relationship with Muggle religions. But those that are living in two worlds, there has to be some sort of relationship with it because they would, just by watching the telly, be exposed to religion.

I'm with you on the Seamus - I simply can't see him any other way and that might have more to do with the romantic version of Ireland and religion that I was fed as an Irish American.

I wasn't expecting nearly this response, quite honestly. I'm very glad that there's so much discussion in here. It's really very very cool :).

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