wook77: (lecture)
wook77 ([personal profile] wook77) wrote2009-11-08 07:14 pm

Day 8: On Homosexuality and Warnings

Another thinkythought post that I found on my thumbdrive.

On Homosexuality and Warnings


I'm not at all certain that this is going to make much sense as it's more a ramble and thinkythoughts than anything clearly outlined and written in a logical fashion (Spock, I am not). That being said – here goes.

I'm extremely bothered by the way that Fandom (and this is Fandom as a whole whether it's Harry Potter, Star Trek, Supernatural, Four Brothers, The Departed or a thousand and one other fandoms) sometimes warns for possible homosexual content.

It really bothers me when I see a warning for pre-slash. It really, really bothers me. And the reason that it bothers me is because I never see the warning for pre-het. If Kirk and McCoy are flirting during a mission but nothing comes of it and it's just because Kirk is totes a flirting h0r, then I do not see it as pre-slash just like when a fic features Kirk flirting with Uhura, it is not pre-het. Yet the first gets a warning of "pre-slash" and the second is considered normal and a-ok.

This really gives me the squidgies, the squirmies, the what are we doing, why are we doing this, grossed-out feeling. I feel, and I'm certain you'll feel differently, that it's helping to encourage the heteronormative blinders when we, as slash fans, should not be reinforcing the heteronormative and warning for Other when we perv over that Other. We are objectifying and fetishizing other people's lives but we're not willing to work for acceptance? That's how it comes across to me – that I'm willing to read about the buttsexx0rs but I'm totally willing to make it easy for you, the heteronormative the-possibility-of-gay-people-scare-me person, to avoid the possibility that there might be teh gheys out there.

I get that we label works as pre-slash because that gets us more viewers and that's another issue entirely. I hate that gen has this reputation of "boring". It's not. It's awesome. There are some amazing buddy!fics out there that totally deserve to be read. There are some awesome buddy!art that should be recced to New Vulcan and back.

But in the end, pre-slash isn't slash just like pre-het isn't het. I don't see either as a valid warning just like I don't see "het" and "slash" as valid warnings. The fact is, when a couple are listed, that should be enough of a clue. If someone can't pick up on the fact that a fic features Kirk/Scotty when I clearly label it as such, than it's a buyer beware thing.

It's a personal decision but I refuse to read anything that warns for slash because I find it infantile if not offensive.

My position, to sum up, is: Stop warning for the sexuality of the characters in your fic, art, whatever. Just list out the pairings or the characters. I have a brain and can figure out that if you put Kirk/McCoy, you mean Kirk/McCoy even if they're not bumping uglies. I'll know that it's a homosexual relationship and can choose accordingly. And if you don't mean it as Kirk/McCoy, don't list it as such. List it as Kirk, McCoy and I'll know that it's buddy!fic. Stop with the warnings about pre-slash. If you mean it to be slash, even if it's not in-your-face buttsexx0rs, then list the pairing and move on. If you don't mean it as slash, then it's gen buddy!fic and w00t on that, too.

[identity profile] blcwriter.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:26 am (UTC)(link)
Word. Well. Words, actually. You said 'em, and now I don't have to.

[identity profile] fitzette.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:36 am (UTC)(link)
Wow. I've totally never thought of it that way. I've actually always thought of it as a warning that hey, here be boys being adorable but they're not technically doing things to each other, so don't get your hopes up. Never as a PRE-GAY BE HERE. I guess that's just naivety on my part.

But yes, here, have these WORD cookies I baked just for you. Warning for slash bothers me immensely. If I list a M/M pairing and you're too stupid to realize the story contains slash, you're too stupid for me too worry about offending you.
red_squared: A red square (Default)

[personal profile] red_squared 2009-11-09 02:40 am (UTC)(link)
I can't speak for anybody else, but when I often conflate 'warnings' with 'enticements'. So when I see 'preslash' as a warning, I interpret it as the author saying 'You don't get to see anything on-screen, and they're not even together as a couple yet, but this explores the chemistry between them if you're into that pairing', and so that it's not seen as false adverising if someone clicks on it looking for something more tangible.

ETA: And you said all that yourself. Reading comprehension FAIL.
Edited 2009-11-09 02:41 (UTC)

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:41 am (UTC)(link)
Hee! Thanks! A couple of fics posted today reminded me I had this sitting out there. :D

[identity profile] thistlerose.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:42 am (UTC)(link)
Word.

It's offensive and redundant (even more so when you're posting to a comm devoted to slash pairing anyway). And yeah, when I see it, I just scroll on by.

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:43 am (UTC)(link)
That's when I would say that you would list it as Pairing: Kirk, McCoy instead of with the slash. Or, I would say list it as Kirk/McCoy with a low rating and I'll know that there's no buttsexx0rs going on.

I see the pre-slash warning a lot on the "anything goes" comms more than the slash comms. That's why it really flagged in my head. Plus, I've never seen a warning/enticement for "pre-het" out there. They could very well exist and then, lulz on me.

The warning for slash is what really fucking annoys me. I did it when I first got into fandom and I want to slap the fuck outta my n00b self.

why hello there coding!fail. so nice to see you again! D:
Edited 2009-11-09 02:45 (UTC)

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:44 am (UTC)(link)
LMFAO! It's All GOOD! I totally get the whole enticement thing but it's more that the author needs to make a decision and stick with it. They know what they meant, yanno?

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:45 am (UTC)(link)
EXACTLY! My scroll wheel gets a whole helluva lotta practice. Especially today when I saw it all over the flist.

[identity profile] fitzette.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:51 am (UTC)(link)
*nods*

in Merlin, there are a few fics I've seen that have higher ratings for violence, you know sword fights and what not, but not for romantic entanglements and such, and sometimes pre-slash is used with those. I guess that's what I'm thinking of? Because otherwise it's just stupid.

oh, html, my old foe. (I waited to reply so you could edit. That's how I roll. :))
ext_150: (Default)

[identity profile] kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:54 am (UTC)(link)
It's a big pet peeve of mine, too, though thankfully I don't see it as often these days as I used to. I did see one McShep Match fic with a warning for slash, which just made me headdesk because it's so STUPID. It's a fest specifically for a slash pairing! (PS The fic was also horrible. This did not surprise me at all.)

I actually see more warnings for het these days, which enrages me just as much, because it always feels very misogynistic. Watch out! There's icky girl parts!

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:58 am (UTC)(link)
Maybe it's the way that I'd word it, then. IDK (see, thinkythoughts and not rational meta). I'd look at the way that the pairing is listed. If it's rated r for violence rather than pre-slash, that's how I'd list it - "Rated R for violence" rather than putting "pre-slash".

Just my thoughts :D

[identity profile] kaalee.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 02:59 am (UTC)(link)
This.

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:00 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not at all surprised either.

UGH! YES! I'm annoyed either way because I consider myself smart enough to figure out, from the pairing listed, if there are "icky girl parts" in it or not. It annoys the everlasting fuck out of me when people warn for the pairing. I can figure out what you mean.

[identity profile] fitzette.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:01 am (UTC)(link)
*nods* Yes, this.

[identity profile] fitzette.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:02 am (UTC)(link)
*drive by snog*

[identity profile] inspiredlife.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:15 am (UTC)(link)
I totally see the warning the same way as you, fitzette. It's like a disclaimer for me, the avid slash fan.

But, wook, you've totally hit the nail on the head. It's offensive, not to mention redundant. What do people think m/m means? in other words, props to you for saying what i'm thinking!

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
To me, idk. I see the rating working in tandem with the pairing. If I see a pg-13 fic with a m/m pairing, I'm going to figure there's no sex in it. I'm going to figure there's no penetration with an r rating.

If there's an r-rating, then warn for the content that the rating references rather than the content that it doesn't. So if a fic is rated R for violence, put that if you want to tell someone that there is no sex happening in the fic.

[identity profile] wook77.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:21 am (UTC)(link)
Also, also, I'm probably reading your comment wrong so feel free to correct me.

I'm reading your comment to mean that you equate slash with sex due to the context and wording. So when you say "avid slash fan" you mean that a fic has to have sex in it to be slash. Is this a correct reading or no?

[identity profile] reddwarfer.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:22 am (UTC)(link)
Wordy McWord. I never read stuff that warns for m/m or whatever.
mercilynn: ({n3} mission)

[personal profile] mercilynn 2009-11-09 03:32 am (UTC)(link)
THIS. Yes. I wish LJ had a "like" button similar to Facebook.

Your rating and your characters/pairing should be enough. Don't warn for pre-slash, unless you're putting something in the Author's Notes along the lines of "To me, this has slash overtones, but could easily be read as Gen."

(However, this brings about my anger of inappropriate headers where some people just list characters and not the pairings so when I settle down to read a nice lovely piece that I think is Gen I get surprise!Het OR surprise!slash)

hello html fail.
Edited 2009-11-09 03:33 (UTC)

[identity profile] inspiredlife.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:49 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, sorry for the confusion. Proof-reading comments is generally a good idea as people can't read my mind. :)

I meant that I do prefer fic that either have established relationships or in which a relationship is fully explored/developed (rather than the hint or possibility of a relationship in the future).

As such, I read the pre-slash warning as one that is telling me that there's the exploration of a relationship here but you're not going to see the relationship form so don't get your hopes up.

If it's a gen fic, I'm likely to pass by it so there's the enticement factor of the pre-slash label. But, if it's listed with a pairing, I'm going to be disappointed because it's not really a pairing in my opinion.

So, I guess, I do like the pre-slash label as it lets me know what i'm getting into but I think there are better ways to explain that. Doing it as a warning is wrong because of the connotations. Erm, that's what you're saying, yeah? *headdesks*

To answer your other question, I don't really equate the pre-slash or slash warning with sex or lack thereof. That's entirely what the ratings are for and ratings should be clear and concise. That being said, I rarely look at ratings so I can't really comment on them.

I'll just end this ramble now. Here's hoping it makes some kind of sense.

[identity profile] nolagal.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 03:51 am (UTC)(link)
The only time I "warn" for slash or het is when the main pairing is one and there is explicit sex in the other. So if my pairings are Harry/Ron, Ron/Hermione and there's explicit Ron/hermione, I'll mention it in the warnings since most people think additional pairings don't get sexy screen time. But I do it for both het and slash.

But yeah, I've never understood pre-slash to mean anything other than a warning that the pairings don't actually get together.

I hate the warnings for slash in general though.

[identity profile] shygryf.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 05:25 am (UTC)(link)
i would warn for pre slash more for a character choice standpoint IE, kirk and jack harkness flirt with anything on two legs so no warning, but if the character isn't a manwhore i warn if its a buddy fic with mild flirting. but yeah warning for slash if the pairing is listed seems silly

[identity profile] tjs-whatnot.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 05:43 am (UTC)(link)
From what you said about doing it when you were a n00b and from my own n00bness, I see it less of a warning for slash, het or pre-slash, but as a warning for n00bness. And depending on the pairing and the rest of the heading, I will consider reading it, because hey, n00bs need love too... atleast I did. :))

[identity profile] enchanted-jae.livejournal.com 2009-11-09 05:57 am (UTC)(link)
I always thought people warned for "pre-slash" as a way of saying, 'No sex in this one--sorry!' Not because they were saying, 'Look out--homoerotica is in the future!' I don't WARN for pre-slash, but I do TAG for it, and that's the reason I tag it thus, meaning 'no action yet, sorry'.

Interesting.

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